Religion

[Alardem]

I don't think atheists really have the right to call people who believe in a god "religious", because technically atheism is a religion as well.
As a Christian, I believe we have all been saved, it comes down to whether we accept our Salvation, offered FREELY to us.

Literally every other belief system has to be a diluted form of Christianity.

[PutraenusAlivius]

Spoiler below!

In Islam, circumcision is mandatory. Terrorism too. And women's rights aren't being promoted but blocked (One passage says you can slap or hit a women if she doesn't obey you.)

Also, you can't change religions if you're in Islam. If you do, then well, you'll be dead.

Juuust saiyan.

[blueberry]

Spoiler below!

In Islam, circumcision is mandatory. Terrorism too. And women's rights aren't being promoted but blocked (One passage says you can slap or hit a women if she doesn't obey you.)

Also, you can't change religions if you're in Islam. If you do, then well, you'll be dead.

Juuust saiyan.

Flame war in 3…2…1...

[Bridge]

but if that makes them feel good

That does not make religion itself a force of good. It's a highly corrupt system that causes a great deal of unhappiness to the majority of its followers, especially those in the developing countries, because it is almost totally incongruous with real life. Belief in a deity is fine, I would even reluctantly call it "logical", but being part of an organized religion is inexcusable.

I guarantee that if all of the religions in the world were suddenly erased from existence, and subjects concerning God and religion were not part of the coming generation's upbringing and schooling, that in the future the number of people belonging to organized religions would be less than 1%. People would, I hope, recognize organized religion as the sham it is and the other 99% would either believe in a deity or be atheists. It is my opinion, and I don't have any evidence to support it, that the only reason religion is so prominent today is because children are brought up with it.

What other possible reason could there be for children born in the Arab world to be very likely to Islamic and children born in Europe very likely to be Christian? That may seem like a stupid sentence, but really think about it. Children are literally conditioned, even if that's not the parents' intention, to believe in exactly the faith they believe. People do change faiths, but that is decidedly rarer. The fact is that children who are brought up in a non-religious home, and that does not mean a household where atheism is militantly propagated, very rarely end up being religious (as in being part of an organized religion).

Consider everything else you take for granted that arrived to you purely by upbringing, everything cultural that is. You may for example as an American be more inclined toward direct communication, speaking your mind openly and favoring unambiguous language so that there is no room for misinterpretation. Which is totally fine, but are you going to say that these cultural quirks have their origin in divinity as well?

[Nice]

It's a highly corrupt system that causes a great deal of unhappiness to the majority of its followers

please do explain

[Kreekakon]

It's a highly corrupt system that causes a great deal of unhappiness to the majority of its followers

please do explain

I think we can take JAP's own personal case as somewhat of an example.

[Nice]

JAP is not a "follower" of the religion his parents imposed on him. You can say that SOME portion of people cause unhappiness but most certainly not all and most certainly not religion itself. If you believe in something then sacrificing certain things shouldnt cause unhappiness to you.

You could say i'm catholic although my views and my philosopy is a bit different from what the church teaches but being in a religious family and such has NEVER caused me any unhappienes, quite the contrary if it did something, it calmed me down or gave me hope.

How is it corrupt? Take catholics and the pope now for example, do you even see what the new pope has been doing all this time? How is selling almost half of wealthy objects that the vatican possesed and giving the money for charity and the poor a corrupt deed?

[Bridge]

How is it corrupt? Take catholics and the pope now for example, do you even see what the new pope has been doing all this time? How is selling almost half of wealthy objects that the vatican possesed and giving the money for charity and the poor a corrupt deed?

There are also examples of Communist states devoid of corruption, where the majority of the residents were free from persecution and scrutiny and everybody lived happily. Does that somehow negate the entirety of Communism's brutal history, or somehow make it not broken and corruptible?

I say that religion makes people unhappy because think about the millions of people out there who are very pious and pray to God for say a loaf of bread and don't get it. Is it because they do not deserve it? Were they not devout enough followers? If you look at the evidence, or even examine your own personal experience with prayers, you will find that it's about a 50/50 shot of them being granted. I would be very confused and unhappy if I were religious and someone who is supposed to listen to me and love me doesn't grant me even the most modest of wishes. Religious people make up the most absurd BS to justify this, like "God works in mysterious ways", which is perhaps the biggest cop-out in history.

[Cuyir]

@Bridge: I was raised as a catholic. I had an insatiable curiosity which made me question everything (thank you mom for taking me to see Jurassic Park when it released). I can say I deluded myself, from time to time to believe in it. I can say I was unhappy with it as a whole; I hated the people in the church, I disliked the hypocrisy of it all and I had some ire towards myself for being part of it. I was also always told that normal human condition and feelings were sins and that i'd burn in hell; that i'd burn in hell for not believing; that i'd burn in hell for questioning the ''will of God''. So trust me when I say that I agree with you and that you have a point.

I also agree on culture being a part of the indoctrination system. Of course, as i've stated, I was raised as a catholic, but the whole culture I was a part of had deeply rooted christian background. It didn't take an indepth look to see how much christianity was part of the culture, like you've said in the cases of the Arab and European worlds. Even if you weren't a churchgoer, you still had a pretty high chance of having a belief in christianity or having trains of thoughts that were influenced by it (ie ''I can't do bad cause I can burn'' and ''i'll donate so i can go to heaven). I mean, look at American currency ''In God We Trust''.

But I still say that the church groups CAN be good for moral support but it's a moot point when you can just have a normal group without it having to be a religious one, like neighbors coming together and whatnot. It's an almost hypocritical and paradoxical way to see it, but if they're doing no harm to themselves and others, that support is all well and good. I think every one of us has personal delusions that help us from day to day, be it minor or major.

I learned from my experience as a self hating catholic (the stereotype is pretty solid if you ask me). I took the good things I learned as a catholic and paired them up with other things I learned from a plethora of other places. Those things I learned as a catholic I COULD have learned elsewhere but it still helped me. This is why I think this way about these belief systems. I stopped being religious but I learned from it. Religion is so big that it functions as a sort of ''lesson dispenser'', lessons that a lot of people wouldn't necessarily ignore when found outside of religion but being formally organized in religious beliefs makes it a better system to deliver said lessons. Is it perfect? Fuck no. Does it work as a sociocultural tool? Yeah. Do we need it? Not really. But it helps, even if it also harms.

[Nice]

so you're saying that church will always be corrupt because it was once in the past? somewhere around the year of 1200

I say that religion makes people unhappy because think about the millions of people out there who are very pious and pray to God for say a loaf of bread and don't get it. Is it because they do not deserve it? Were they not devout enough followers? If you look at the evidence, or even examine your own personal experience with prayers, you will find that it's about a 50/50 shot of them being granted. I would be very confused and unhappy if I were religious and someone who is supposed to listen to me and love me doesn't grant me even the most modest of wishes. Religious people make up the most absurd BS to justify this, like "God works in mysterious ways", which is perhaps the biggest cop-out in history.

okay so tell me, which one of the two people will get through things more easily and most importantly will be happier?

Both of them are living a really poor life and they are in starvation, you could say on the verge of dying. They have nothing and no one...they are left to themselves.

Person 1 is an athesist, person 2 is religious.

Person 1: He is well aware that he's not getting any "magical" help, he knows that he stands alone in all of this and that he's pretty much dead if he somehow doesnt find food...If he dies, he will waste away into nothingness. It will all turn black. boom. over.

Person 2: He lives through his pain and suffering with hope that someday his prayer might get answered. He knows that whatever happens, there's God that will watch over him. He also realises that according to what his religion teaches, that all his suffering and humiliation will be greatly repayed for in heaven, so if he dies, he will wake up in heaven where he will be greatly satiated and ..well.. will experience great happiness.

now ofc this is where it gets touchy... Obviously as an atheist you're going to wave your hand and say "Poor person 2, so deluded and living in false hope" while a religious person is going to say "Poor person 2, if he's not gonna manage through in this life, he will in next"

and once again, touchy subject. An atheist is OBVIOUSLY going to claim that the prayers of those poor never come true, while someone like me would say that there's a fair chance they do.

Also an atheist such as yourself would deny that any miracles happen but a religious person such as myself will believe of the miracles they hear. For example my parents went on a pilgrim road and they shared stories of the people they met there... For example how someones daughter, after being hit by a car and having her whole body broken, she woke up in the hospital next day with all of her bones and limbs intact. That night, all of the girls relatives were praying till the morning. And that's definetly not the only story i know of.

but again, that's why having a proper argument is impossible because an atheist is going to call BS on that story because its not scientifcly possible, while a religious person that lives in faith and belives in supernatural is going to believe those stories and use them as proof.

sorry about taking so long, was eating a pizza