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**Kman** · 05-14-2014, 07:13 PM

(05-14-2014, 01:54 PM)Dogfood Wrote: wrong place to advertise the "equality", if our society is so amazing they should do it somewhere where it would be more efficient rather than a music competition and that right there was not equality. Equality would be if she had been given the proper place according to her singing.

It's also extremely unfair to competitioners. Eurovision sucks, its true but some singers there still put quite a lot of effort into their songs. Tell you this, as someone that practises very hard, used to practise more than 4 hours a day (before injuries), if someone won against me in a competition just because they were black/homosexual/trans-gender while they absolutely suck, i'd lose my mind xD

but we're no where near equality, especially when it comes to trans people. in fact, the very fact that so many people hold this mindset that we live in a post-oppression society is indicative of how far we are from that. this is a great place for this sort of thig to occur because its a widely known competition and is going to gain a lot of attention and will actually of attention and actually hopefully help get us to a point where we are equal. do you not understand how huge this is for trans rights and acceptance? think about how many people who are struggling with their gender saw this and suddenly felt a little less isolated. think about how many people who didnt even know about genderfluid or trans people that just became a little more educated on gender. think about all the people who were ignorant and bigoted who are a little more accepting because they saw this. think about all the people who are now thinking about their behavior and how they treat minorities because of this (like you probably should be doing right now)

from what ive heard she isn't anywhere near as offensively bad as you're making her out to be. sure she's not amazing and there were probably people in the competition better than her but i'll ask you again; what do you think is more important literally all those things i just listed above or some third rate singer song writer that will be forgotten in half a year getting some money. besides, she has a good voice even if its not incredible, she can hold a melody and has a decent range so really the only reason why i could see someone thinking she's offensively bad is if they have some predisposed negative opinion of her cause she's trans which SPOILER ALERT you kind of clearly do through how you've been speaking in this thread

(05-14-2014, 02:17 PM)Tiger Wrote: Well, to be fair, the reason Dogfood and other people say that might be because they honestly don't know what the winner(I guess a she?) wants to be identified as. Nothing weird about that.

its pretty clear she's trying to present as a woman since everything about her other than the beard is meant to look female. if anything i'd bet she's genderfluid or in the process of transitioning mtf. or maybe she just doesn't care and likes to have a beard, which you know, that's cool too

even if that wasn't clear a quick google search most likely would have told you what pronouns she prefers. it's not ok to refer to her as a shemale or a man if she's trying to preset as a woman, and holy shit it is not ok in ANY circumstances to refer to someone who's trans or doesn't conform to gender norms as a thing or an it. that's seriously as bad as if a black person won and someone said "wow i can't believe that dirty nigger won" and its honestly fucking shocking to me that you guys are speaking like this so casually

**Wooderson** · 05-14-2014, 07:28 PM

If it adds to the discussion, it may be worth checking out http://www.reddit.com/r/transtimelines/

I first got interested in the subject when Laura Jane Grace of Against Me! went through her sex change. Hearing her struggles of coping with her identity really helped with realizing that these are people and that they actually have feelings. In terms of equality, they are a minority that is oppressed still.

Also going back to http://www.reddit.com/r/transtimelines/, you can see how happy the people posting there are now that they feel comfortable.

**Kman** · 05-14-2014, 07:41 PM

laura jane grace is an angel and i love her agreed

**Tiger** · 05-14-2014, 07:46 PM

Ok, yeah, I guess you're right. I didn't watch ESC so I have no idea what she(?) looked like.

**Kman** · 05-14-2014, 08:07 PM

i should make it clear i don't hold it against you personally if you hold these sorts of beliefs/prejudices that im talking about but if anything you should listen and try to learn something and hopefully improve your thoughts/language. unfortunately like i said trans people are more/less the most oppressed group in society so its very very easy to be transphobic without meaning it since there's soooo much of that ingrained into our society as it is, so if anything it's just ignorance. and you shouldn't blame people for ignorance or hold it against them, but you shouldn't excuse it either

**failedALIAS** · 05-14-2014, 08:44 PM

(05-14-2014, 08:07 PM)Kman Wrote: i should make it clear i don't hold it against you personally if you hold these sorts of beliefs/prejudices that im talking about but if anything you should listen and try to learn something and hopefully improve your thoughts/language. unfortunately like i said trans people are more/less the most oppressed group in society so its very very easy to be transphobic without meaning it since there's soooo much of that ingrained into our society as it is, so if anything it's just ignorance. and you shouldn't blame people for ignorance or hold it against them, but you shouldn't excuse it either

Spoiler below!

**Tiger** · 05-14-2014, 08:44 PM

No, I definitely agree about transgender people being very oppressed(for a lack of a better word), but I don't believe it was that clear whether she wanted to be identified as a man or a woman. With other transgendered people it's usually a lot easier.

**Kman** · 05-14-2014, 10:29 PM

well yeah in that case like i said, its easy enough to do a simple search to figure out specifically how she wants to identify, but calling her a thing because its not immediately clear and acting as if she's subhuman is nottttt ok

**Kreekakon** · 05-14-2014, 10:53 PM

(05-14-2014, 07:13 PM)Kman Wrote: from what ive heard she isn't anywhere near as offensively bad as you're making her out to be. sure she's not amazing and there were probably people in the competition better than her but i'll ask you again; what do you think is more important literally all those things i just listed above or some third rate singer song writer that will be forgotten in half a year getting some money. besides, she has a good voice even if its not incredible, she can hold a melody and has a decent range so really the only reason why i could see someone thinking she's offensively bad is if they have some predisposed negative opinion of her cause she's trans which SPOILER ALERT you kind of clearly do through how you've been speaking in this thread

I have not watched the competition in question, but I'll say that I'll admit, it would be INCREDIBLY nice for someone to win the competition from their group, but that doesn't matter here as much as one hopes it should.

It's a contest, and in a contest I believe that one should be judged for victory depending on how good they are period. The better person in terms of what is being judged should always win regardless of other factors. Again, it would be awesome for someone from their group to win, but in a contest judges should have standards, and be professional enough not to factor that sort of thing into deciding a winner.

And I can tell Dogfood did not think she sucked badly. He was only using "absolutely sucked" as an example to get his point across that if he WAS someone who was clearly better in terms of skill than the person from the oppressed group, he would feel extreme injustice.

**Nice** · 05-14-2014, 11:20 PM

^ wat kreek said

if my expression came out somehow insulting, well I didnt mean it. There was no subtle hatred behind the words I used. I have refered to her with multiple sexes at once because I honestly really did have no idea which gender she is, I've read around the comments and some people say that it's a guy standing up for females and others say its a female standing up for transsexuals.

and sorry but when there's a person with a woman's hair, lipstick, skirt and a beard and when the gender is unknown I really have no other option but to refer to them as something in the middle