You've killed us both

[Renegade_]

Lolwhat. I... need? Srsly, man, I don't need to do anything. You started all this rant, if you want some proofs - go find it.

Deus ex machina. Meaning that if your argument needs to rely on incredible or implausible events (such as Daniel's death was not actually death) then it is a sign of poor design. But like I said, whether he died isn't even important, only that The Shadow (a supposedly consistent universal force) inconsistently came for him across different endings.

Yes, this topic is about finding 'proofs' or an explanation to the contradiction. You've made it clear that your argument is of the form "just because", "whatever, deal with it". Fine.

But please allow others with more constructive arguments to comment, and from this point I'll be limiting my responses to those.

So again, the question:

If The Shadow was in pursuit of Daniel's life, then why did it not take it regardless? If it was only in pursuit of The Orb, or an attempt to use it, then why pursue Daniel at all?

[Oscar House]

I don't know/remember where it was pointed out that the Shadow is a universal force, but anyway.
For the major part of the game, the Shadow is after Daniel because, simply, he's in the way. Now, in the end, when Alexander, Daniel and the orb are in the same room, the Shadow's primary target is the orb: once it gets the orb, it returns to where it came from.
- When Alexander manages to escape, the only person left there is Daniel. The Shadow takes him and starts another pursuit for the orb (and Alexander).
- When Agrippa manages to escape, both Alexander and Daniel stay. The Shadow takes them both and goes after the orb (and Agrippa).
- When Daniel foils Alexander's plan, the Shadow gets the orb and leaves.

This explanation has one flaw though: why would they even try to escape if the Shadow won't stop for anything? Maybe it would take very long for the Shadow to reach them again? Years? Decades?

[Kein]

Deus ex machina. Meaning that if your argument needs to rely on incredible or implausible events (such as Daniel's death was not actually death) then it is a sign of poor design. But like I said, whether he died isn't even important, only that The Shadow (a supposedly consistent universal force) inconsistently came for him across different endings.

Poor design. Well, ya'now... I never thought that Amnesia is a plot-oriented game. It mostly gameplay + some light background story for the atmosphere.

So, yes, that could be an explanation.

Also, don't use too much "deus ex" expression, especially when it does not fit in the context

Yes, this topic is about finding 'proofs' or an explanation to the contradiction.

There is No contradiction. The only contradiction in your head. You really want one and - voila! - there is. But just for you.

You've made it clear that your argument is of the form "just because", "whatever, deal with it". Fine.

When and where? Did I miss sumtin?

But please allow others with more constructive arguments to comment, and from this point I'll be limiting my responses to those.

It is not like I'm a moderator and about to close the thread, huh.

---

Oscar House

- When Agrippa manages to escape, both Alexander and Daniel stay. The Shadow takes them both and goes after the orb (and Agrippa).

Wrong. First, we don't know who dies in 2nd ending. Second, Shadow CAN'T follow to the other side. Third, Shadow has nothing to do with Agrippa, because he -- just liek Weyer -- was mentally strong enough to be an Orb wielder. Only the weakling became a victims of the Guardian.

- When Daniel foils Alexander's plan, the Shadow gets the orb and leaves.

SENSE. LOGIC. Add some please. You just said it follow the Agrippa to other side but now it suddenly leaves it's target in 3rd ending. LOL.

================
Also, you all missed the fact that Daniel assembles another Orb (to access Orb Chamber). That means another Guardian should follow him.

[hollowleviathan]

I still maintain the blood sacrifice theory. The alleged disproof being that you die when you help Agrippa through the portal despite Alexander's death, but in this scenario, you did not directly cause his end like stopping his portal summoning ritual does; we don't know what Agrippa, or Weyer does in the short time he's been freed to whatever plane that is. (Nor do we know that, if you do indeed die, it's the Shadow. Agrippa could be severing you from your body to yank you into his plane.)

More simply, the intent of that ending is that you deferred your fear and your anger to the plan of a wiser being more attuned to the orb and their mythos. The Shadow is relentless and murderous. In the ending where you directly end Alexander, you embody that animus and have by thwarting him returned his orb and yours to the guardian.

[Renegade_]

I don't know/remember where it was pointed out that the Shadow is a universal force, but anyway.
For the major part of the game, the Shadow is after Daniel because, simply, he's in the way. Now, in the end, when Alexander, Daniel and the orb are in the same room, the Shadow's primary target is the orb: once it gets the orb, it returns to where it came from.
This explanation has one flaw though: why would they even try to escape if the Shadow won't stop for anything? Maybe it would take very long for the Shadow to reach them again? Years? Decades?

I think the exact term used was 'balancing force', towards the beginning/middle of the game Alexander explains (or Daniel reads in a note) that The Shadow is just the 'universe correcting itself'. Leading us to believe The Shadow isn't vindictive or personal, but rather more like a universal law, a blind force, like gravity.

It's not made clear what happens to The Orb in the end, but the problem with The Orb theory is that we learn it has been chasing Daniel for the better part of the story, when for the better part of the story Daniel does not even possess The Orb!
Is it possible he's just merely in the way for the duration? Still the major reason Daniel (as some like to suggest he do) cannot just escape from the castle is because The Shadow will hunt him. However if it were only after The Orbs, it should have simply ignored him...

I still maintain the blood sacrifice theory. The alleged disproof being that you die when you help Agrippa through the portal despite Alexander's death, but in this scenario, you did not directly cause his end like stopping his portal summoning ritual does; we don't know what Agrippa, or Weyer does in the short time he's been freed to whatever plane that is. (Nor do we know that, if you do indeed die, it's the Shadow. Agrippa could be severing you from your body to yank you into his plane.)

More simply, the intent of that ending is that you deferred your fear and your anger to the plan of a wiser being more attuned to the orb and their mythos. The Shadow is relentless and murderous. In the ending where you directly end Alexander, you embody that animus and have by thwarting him returned his orb and yours to the guardian.

This could be if The Shadow were made out to be a vindictive and spiteful god-like entity which keeps tabs on whom killed whom with what and when, etc. But the storyline, as mentioned above, portrays The Shadow as a 'balancing force', slow-acting but consistent, indiscriminate. This view of The Shadow is reinforced later in the storyline when Alexander reveals that the entire 'blood sacrifice' motif was a charade, and only served his private gains (for the creation of 'vitae'), while actually doing nothing to prevent The Shadow's coming. This reinforces the notion that The Shadow is not a god that can be appeased, it is a universal force which acts without spite, without intent; yet the one ending in question seems to contradict this...

[Oscar House]

SENSE. LOGIC. Add some please. You just said it follow the Agrippa to other side but now it suddenly leaves it's target in 3rd ending. LOL.

Its target was the orb. Now it has the orb. Now it can leave. "SENSE LOGIC LOL"

Also, you all missed the fact that Daniel assembles another Orb (to access Orb Chamber). That means another Guardian should follow him.

An unguarded, non-moving orb shouldn't be much of a challenge to grab on the way to the Inner Sanctum.

Is it possible he's just merely in the way for the duration? Still the major reason Daniel (as some like to suggest he do) cannot just escape from the castle is because The Shadow will hunt him. However if it were only after The Orbs, it should have simply ignored him...

A very good point.

[Kein]

Its target was the orb. Now it has the orb. Now it can leave. "SENSE LOGIC LOL"

Sigh.
Orb was destroyed by the ritual. Just like in previous one... The game has story notes. Read the please. It is not an FPS.

An unguarded, non-moving orb shouldn't be much of a challenge to grab on the way to the Inner Sanctum.

Aaand? If the Shadow was just after the Orb, Daniel could just leave it on the ground and run to London. But no, game state's the fact that Guardian kills all "weak" wielders.
...

[senataur]

I always took it that the 'red goo' was a consequence of whatever Alexander was up to in the castle. From the beginning before I knew anything at all about what was going on.

In the chase sequences I never thought it was the shadow that was chasing me. The first chase was a water lurker, the second I thought was a normal monster and I didn't turn around for the third.

If you continue with my line of thinking, the red goo could just be the result of the ritual Alexander was performing. In the 2 endings where the ritual is completed and the portal appears and either Agrippa of Alexander goes through it, the red goo takes over and kills anyone left over in the Castle.

In the ending where Daniel stops the ritual the red goo is also stopped.

Has anyone got any information that would counter my thinking? Is the shadow actually the red goo?

[ChrisR91]

The Shadow is the red goo that follows you throughout the game, as it signifies it's presence. It is able to consume anything in its path as some of you have seen the servant grunts gore on a few occasions. Being a guardian its job is to retrieve the orb from anyone who disturbs the orbs resting place as well as kill anyone who wishes to use its power.

Now with the endings Alexander is able to return to his homeland. The Shadow kills the man responsible for taking the orb, as well as make Daniel suffer through his memories as he dies, and most likely stays at Brennenburg in order to continue its duties.

Agrippa's Ending, The Shadow was merciful to Daniel by killing him in one hit,. Not only that but his body was probably sent through the portal to be able live in peace with Agrippa and Weyer.

Daniel's Ending, well stopping the ritual allowed The Shadow to reclaim the orb and kill Alexander, freeing Daniel from its grip. He then left and continued to enjoy life as free minded human being.

Anyway its better to enjoy the story of an excellent game rather than finding contradictions in the story.

[thePyro13]

I don't think The Shadow is a guardian. After all, Weyer managed to remove several orbs from their resting places without invoking the shadow.

I think it is a side effect of someone who is not skilled with the orb trying to use its power. It chased Agrippa when he first activated one, and daniel, but not Alexander, or Weyer.

If the shadow is somehow related to daniels latent connection to the orb he activated, and most of the flashbacks seem to be about Daniels past(the one about the hitting a child with a rock in particular). Then I think the shadow chases daniel because he feels guilty for the things he has done in the past. I also think the shadow become stronger based on the strength of Daniels guilt. When alexander tricks him into thinking he warded the shadow off, the shadow backed off(he felt as though he had paid away his guilt). And when he realised what was going on, and hated himself for what alexander had made him do and the shadow came back in full force.

Likewise, the shadow backed off when daniel wiped his memory, and picked up pace as he found out more about what he had been doing with alexander.

Now the endings:

Ending 1: Alexander escapes leaving Daniel behind. Daniel feels beaten and wasted, without anyway to atone for what he has done. The shadow consumes him.

Ending 2: Daniel lets Agrippa through the portal. He still hasn't faced what he has done, the shadow consumes him, and Alexander. Though in the end we hear Agrippa plead to Weyer to save Daniel, so we don't know for sure of daniels fate.

Ending 3: Daniel places the blame for everything he has done on Alexander, and ruins Alexander's plans. He wants Alexander to pay for what he has made Daniel do. He breaks the portal, and the shadow consumes Alexander. Daniel feels as though he has received justice for what happened at the castle and the shadow retreats.

This is the theory my brother and I came up with. Though I'd have to read through many of the diary's(particularly Agrippas letter) more carefully to say for sure and to find any mistakes.