The truth behind Agrippa (and Alexander [spoilers]).

[Smithens]

In other words... Whose the real bad guy?

This thread is mainly meant to discuss Agrippa's true motives and theories behind his goals and origins. Unless you want your virgin eyes to be deflowered by major spoilers, read no further. I'll keep my post spoiler-protected for safety's sake.

Spoiler below!

Since you first hear about Agrippa, his true identity remains something of a mystery. Many of you might remember this note early on in the game:

Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa, the well known erudite, visited Altstadt at the start of the 16th century. He resided in the local inn for a fortnight as he looked for remnants of kingdoms past. During his stay all the prominent members of society paid notice and he is mentioned in many records of the time. One day he went to investigate a burrow in the northwestern glades only to never be seen again. Heinrich is known to have passed away in Grenoble some ten years later. He dismissed the notion of ever visiting Altstadt, which makes you wonder what really happened. Who was this mysterious man who visited the sleepy hamlet in the woods and what happened to him?

Another note found later in the game, written by the supposed Agrippa himself, describes the adventure he undertook in Altstadt and provides an explanation for his appearance. Below is a part of the note.

Suddenly a blue shimmering light engulfed me and the colors of the forest were washed away before my eyes. I kept running through the bleak surroundings, the trees had turned charcoal black with leaves of cinder, the ground covered in murky water. I pressed on through the drenched land as the glowing ember gave way to the rising wind and rained on me. I could hear pleading screams in the distance and I joined in as pain and fear overtook me. I fell to the ground gasping for air.

This certainly must sound strange, but I had been carried miles away across the Alps to a grassy field outside Genoa. The guardian had taken the orb from me, but still until this day I fear its return. Sometimes I lay awake at night listening for the howling cry I heard in the forest. It has been nearly a decade since that day and I still haven't been able to write about the incident.

The above text may also seem familiar to Daniel. Daniel underwent the same experience after he found the orb - a blue, shimmering light, horrible death to the people involved with him, hallucinations, and fainting. But the only difference is that the Shadow left Agrippa alone, while it continued to mercilessly pursue Daniel. So that means something else must have happened.

One theory to Agrippa's true identity is just the fact that he is himself; the latter text explains that unknown forces transported him very far from Altstadt, across the Alps, and into Genoa somehow. According to the former text, he passed away in Grenoble, which isn't far from Genoa.

But that theory just doesn't make sense to me. Who was the man in Grenoble claiming to be Agrippa? And whose voice was in that lifeless husk in the depths of Castle Brennenberg?

And here's something else to wet your noodle. At the end of the game, Alexander chastises Daniel for his ignorance and naiveté, and gives hints to the true nature of Agrippa:

I was wondering if you were going to show up. I see Agrippa convinced you to run some errands. Tell me, is everything nice and clear now? Am I the villain? Good and evil. Such comforting concepts - but hardly applicable. Are you so blind that you see no good in me? Or evil in Agrippa?

After hearing this, I began to doubt my cause (my cause being me going for the "good" ending; throwing Agrippa's head in the portal, sacrificing Daniel and Alexander). Think about it; if anyone should go through the portal, it should be Alexander. It's heavily implied that he's some sort of supernatural being, and whatever is through that portal is his home which he was banished from initially. Daniel has no business there, and neither does Agrippa (as far as we know). Alexander also criticizes Daniel for not seeing the good in him or the evil in Agrippa - so who is the evil one here? Sure, Alexander tortured countless people to death and manipulated Daniel, but he took no pleasure in it; all of that was necessary for him to reach his ultimate goal, which is beyond human life: to return to his alien realm (Alexander's true form? o:). But does Agrippa not also manipulate Daniel? Does he not convince Daniel to free him from his body, and then throw him in the portal in place of Alexander, leaving Daniel to die from the Shadow?

Throughout the game, most of the characters Daniel interacts with - Alexander, Agrippa, and even Herbert - give off the mysterious impression that they know more than they're letting off. They all seem to have a far greater understanding of the events transpiring than Daniel and the player. This continuation of mystery and the apparent omniscience of the characters is also what makes Amnesia's plot so scary and delectable. But that's besides the point.

Only Alexander and Agrippa know the real truth about each other. No one else in the real world can say for certain except (maybe) the developers. So that leaves it up to debate.

tl;dr: There's lots of mystery surrounding Agrippa and his true motives in the game, so what is his true origin? Is he the real bad guy? Feel free to post your suggestions.

[Tintin]

Very interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing. I too think Agrippa wasn't as innocent as he was made out to be. But I would argue that Alexander did take great pleasure in torturing and killing his victims and manipulating Daniel. His attitude throughout the game reflects an unbalanced mind. I would also argue that just because Alexander is probably a supernatural being and was banished from his homeworld, doesn't mean that he wasn't in the wrong. He could have betrayed others and the banishment may have been his just punishment. If he was able to return to his homeworld, it's very likely that Alexander would have spread great chaos and destroyed those who banished him.

Think God and Lucifer. Even if you don't believe the Bible is true, it can't be argued that God is seen as absolute good and Lucifer in his betrayl of God becomes the very abscence of absolute good. After he betrays God, he is banished from God's Kingdom. I think Alexander's situation is similar up to a point. He did some great wrong, was punished for it and worked for many, many centuries at finding a way to return to his homeworld. He's hardly innocent.

[Smithens]

Good points, Tintin. But about his attitude; one might think that his personality (based on external observation) is unbalanced for human standards. The way he goes about harming Daniel and maliciously torturing people is nonchalant, cold, and calculated. But Alexander is hardly human. He comes from a higher society of beings, and his disregard for human life can easily be explained by this.

Alexander may or may not be sadistic, but he is definitely an "ends justify the means" sort of fellow, which can be considered pretty "evil" no matter how noble his intentions are.

Despite what I just said, I believe that he intends to return to his world for noble intentions, not to wreck havoc. It's only been implied that he was forcefully cast out of his old world somehow, we don't know the reasons or whether or not it was an accident. I think that the old man just wants to get back to his wife. He mentions in one of the notes that he wishes to be reunited with his "love."

E: Also, since we seem to be discussing Alexander too, I changed the topic title

[Zoridium JackL]

just felt like pointing out hat the reason the shadow is chasing daniel is the he still has the orb, it left Agrippa because he didn't have the orb... if the shadow had the orb, i doubt it would have really cared what daniel did.

[Smithens]

just felt like pointing out hat the reason the shadow is chasing daniel is the he still has the orb, it left Agrippa because he didn't have the orb... if the shadow had the orb, i doubt it would have really cared what daniel did.

Except that Alexander took the orb from Daniel and brought it to his inner sanctum. Why didn't the shadow just pursue and kill Alexander? There were multiple points in the game where it was obvious that the shadow was going for Daniel specifically (example). Also, Daniel didn't carry it with him everywhere before he went to Brennenberg. He often left it at his house, I believe.

Once you touch the orb, you're cursed until you're dead.

[LuckyBlackCatXIII]

These are all very good points and very interesting to read since I remember pondering over what Alexander had to say in the end but I would like to voice my opinion one one part of it:

You say Alexander doesn't enjoy the killing, murdering, torturing etc but I'd have to disagree. Listening to all the memory audio clips (which I have repeatedly listened to all of them because I am ridiculously obsessed with this game /sob) there are many moments where the baron's tone clearly shows he's enjoying the 'labor' far more than one should.

The ones that come to mind right now would be when he's explaining the procedures of torture to Daniel, both on how the pipes work and the wheel. The parts from both I believe show pleasure would be:

Pipes: "...manage your victims well and let one prisoner's pain instill terror in his cell mate"

The Wheel: "But the forte of the wheel is the gaps. When you have decided that the victim shall die, you can smash their limbs with a hammer, making them fold in-between the frames....no don't worry. The human body is much more resilient. They can survive for days until they finally succumb"

(If you want to hear for yourself the full audio parts can be found here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKpbcJVpl1I at points 8:46 - 9:15 and 11:51 - 12:34 )

You could argue he might sound enthusiastic in an effort to get Daniel into the killings (which personally I would find that more of a turn off imo) or I could be over analyzing it but that's how I see it...er...hear it.

[Zoridium JackL]

just felt like pointing out hat the reason the shadow is chasing daniel is the he still has the orb, it left Agrippa because he didn't have the orb... if the shadow had the orb, i doubt it would have really cared what daniel did.

Except that Alexander took the orb from Daniel and brought it to his inner sanctum. Why didn't the shadow just pursue and kill Alexander? There were multiple points in the game where it was obvious that the shadow was going for Daniel specifically (example). Also, Daniel didn't carry it with him everywhere before he went to Brennenberg. He often left it at his house, I believe.

Once you touch the orb, you're cursed until you're dead.

firstly, that may just be because it is travelling in the same direction, and secondly, there are points in the game where you are litterally following a path the shadow has already taken, which means it has overtaken you at some point, meaning it isn't after youi, but something in the same direction.

[Kein]

In other words... Whose the real bad guy?

Dat naked dude you can see in the end.

[Firia]

It's been a little while since I played Amnesia (but something brought me this way again). But there was something in my initial playthrough that knawed at me. Since it's been so long (rather, a great many things have happened in a short time to sort of make it feel like a very long time), correct me if I get any of these details are wrong.

Spoiler below!

When we first meet Agrippa, we're afflicted by Amnesia, naturally (for the game anyway). We only know Agrippa through texts we've read since the game began. This is the facts we know.

When Agrippa introduces himself, the conversation he has with Daniel is one sided. "Who might you be? Daniel?" skip to 1:40. Agrippa doesn't seem to know who Daniel is until this moment of introduction. But why? This is the first time we know of that we've encountered Agrippa, because we have no memory of it happening. But Daniel has been in Alexanders service for months! He's preformed rituals a few rooms away. The scaring chambers to get people freaked enough for the rituals were in the adjacent room to where Agrippa was being held! It would be ignorant to believe that in all this time Daniel had never met or spoken to Agrippa.

So was Agrippa manipulating Daniel? I found his friendly voice very calming in the dark environment. I wanted to trust the creature. He was the one source of refuge in that dark time. Agrippa was Daniels one friend. And it could be that Agrippa played Daniel that way.

So either this is a hole in Frictionals story, or what we saw is what we got (Agrippa does save Daniel in one of the endings), or there's more to this otherworld creature than is let on.

[Murloc]

Why was Alexander naked when he was about to go to his homeworld? There must have been a reason for him throwing all his cloths off before proceding with the ritual, or?