To all you modders out there!

[eliasfrost]

In regards to "story-gameplay, gameplay-story", for me when I started my project, I began with the story and the narrative, and after I got the ideas down, story, setting, the color palette, music, sound and mood, I started to look for an engine. I wrote down and thinked about what kind of gameplay would best complement my narrative, doing the things the other way around feels weird to me because that means I have to cut corners on the core of my game: the story and setting to fit in with the gameplay. For other types of game, I would totally start with the gameplay, like if I was making an arcade style scorehunt fest. But my game would never be able to fit into that kind of development structure. As I said earlier, it's very situational and like Adianis said, I think it's wrong of a lecturer to prioritize one type of game over the other, or one development structure over the other, because all of them have a place somewhere, it's all about what kind of game you make, and what features you put most emphasis on.

[rtjhbfvsrry]

Honestly, I think everyone is missing the point about the "don't start with the story". It's not a question of story vs gameplay at all because in an ideal storydriven game the story is part of the gameplay. Story should never be a starting point because a game is something you want the player to experience, not a story you want to tell. Starting from a game mechanic is just as bad as starting from a story - you start with core experience values. One of your core experience values can be narrative, but if you're simply there to tell a story then go write a book. You need to know how you want your player to experience a narrative (a.k.a. gameplay) before you even start thinking about what that narrative is going to be. "Gameplay comes first" does not equal "game mechanics come first".

There's a reason starting with the story is considered a cardinal sin by most experienced gamedevs, including industry vets like Chris Avellone* or Ernest Adams (the latter of which gave me a good chewing out about it in person). I've made this mistake before myself and if your gameplay is based on your story, your game will fail. Even examples of story driven games given here work this way, The Walking Dead or Heavy Rain or even Dear Esther. You think the only thing to that game is the exposition fed to you by the narrator or something? Story is simply an element of this game, an important element, but without the other experience values this story would simply not have worked (with all due respect to Thechineseroom, I'm not completely sure it works now).

For anyone really interested in core experience values, go read Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics by Hunicke, LeBlanc and Zubek. Link for your convenience: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf

*To drive this home, this is the guy who wrote and designed the majority of Planescape Torment.

[Traggey]

As for both Dear Esther and Heavy Rain, I can promise you guys that when the ideas for these games was though of someone showed up and said ''Let's make a game like this'' they did not however show up with a 400 page book and told people to make a game out of it.

See where I'm coming from?

Also just as Hirnwirbel stated before, this stuff really applies to students, as someone whom is currently going through a school just like this I can tell you that pretty much every single word she writes in here is true.

[Bridge]

Honestly, I think everyone is missing the point about the "don't start with the story". It's not a question of story vs gameplay at all because in an ideal storydriven game the story is part of the gameplay. Story should never be a starting point because a game is something you want the player to experience, not a story you want to tell. Starting from a game mechanic is just as bad as starting from a story - you start with core experience values. One of your core experience values can be narrative, but if you're simply there to tell a story then go write a book. You need to know how you want your player to experience a narrative before you even start thinking about what that narrative is going to be.

There's a reason starting with the story is considered a cardinal sin by most experienced gamedevs, including industry vets like Chris Avellone* or Ernest Adams (the latter of which gave me a good chewing out about it in person). I've made this mistake before myself and if your gameplay is based on your story, your game will fail. Even examples of story driven games given here work this way, The Walking Dead or Heavy Rain or even Dear Esther. You think the only thing to that game is the exposition fed to you by the narrator or something?

For anyone really interested in core experience values, go read Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics by Hunicke, LeBlanc and Zubek. Link for your convenience: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf

*To drive this home, this is the guy who wrote and designed the majority of Planescape Torment.

I think this is fairly solid advice. Ignoring of course the fact that aesthetics in video games are inseparable from both the story and the gameplay. It's a mistake to "start" with anything, it is all important. The foundation on which everything is built needs to account for everything that is going to be built upon it, otherwise the structure will fall.

[rtjhbfvsrry]

I'd say asking the question "what do I want the player to experience?" is a pretty good starting point, but you're right of course. As one of my idiot lecturers used to say, your game won't grow if your core is rotten.

[Nice]

we need googolplex here, he could enlighten us about this whole story vs gameplay thing

yup

[rtjhbfvsrry]

Haha, well, honestly, for anyone not making arcade games his advice of "forgetting about fun in video games" is pretty solid, though for the wrong reasons. I've always thought the developer goal of "how do I make this game fun?" should be replaced with "how do I make this game engaging?".

Frictional seems to understand this more than any other company. When in the proper mindset, Amnesia is terrifying. If I'm terrified, I'm extremely engaged, but I'd hesitate to call the experience "fun".

[Bridge]

It depends on your interpretation of "fun" I guess. I find Penumbra and Amnesia to be extremely appealing aesthetically and the gameplay certainly is enjoyable in a sense but I agree the casual, jovial definition of "fun" that is standard does not apply.

[rtjhbfvsrry]

Yeah, it gets a bit muddy around definitions so I find it's generally more clear to refer to it as engagement. Seems to get the point across more easily.

[eliasfrost]

Honestly, I think everyone is missing the point about the "don't start with the story". It's not a question of story vs gameplay at all because in an ideal storydriven game the story is part of the gameplay. Story should never be a starting point because a game is something you want the player to experience, not a story you want to tell. Starting from a game mechanic is just as bad as starting from a story - you start with core experience values. One of your core experience values can be narrative, but if you're simply there to tell a story then go write a book. You need to know how you want your player to experience a narrative (a.k.a. gameplay) before you even start thinking about what that narrative is going to be. "Gameplay comes first" does not equal "game mechanics come first".

There's a reason starting with the story is considered a cardinal sin by most experienced gamedevs, including industry vets like Chris Avellone* or Ernest Adams (the latter of which gave me a good chewing out about it in person). I've made this mistake before myself and if your gameplay is based on your story, your game will fail. Even examples of story driven games given here work this way, The Walking Dead or Heavy Rain or even Dear Esther. You think the only thing to that game is the exposition fed to you by the narrator or something? Story is simply an element of this game, an important element, but without the other experience values this story would simply not have worked (with all due respect to Thechineseroom, I'm not completely sure it works now).

For anyone really interested in core experience values, go read Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics by Hunicke, LeBlanc and Zubek. Link for your convenience: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf

*To drive this home, this is the guy who wrote and designed the majority of Planescape Torment.

Pretty much what I mean, maybe I just worded my post poorly.


Not directed to anyone in particular:
What I'm going for is that both are important yes, but you can't work on both at the same time at the idea stage, you need gameplay to forward the story, but you also need a story to be forwarded by the gameplay, see what I mean? These can later interviene but without one of them to start with, there's nothing else to complement that, and note that I used the word complement in a way that doesn't emphasise one thing more than the other, it's very much like when you write a book, the language partially define the story and setting but the story also defines what language is used.

Maybe that sounds retarded but my point is: Gameplay and story is both equally important (depending on game) but you need one to accompany the other, you can't start with both unless you are the absolute ubermensch of storytelling and game design, because it needs to fall together in a compelling way, if it doesn't, and the gameplay doesn't complement the story or vice versa, then I'd say you need to rethink things. And as I said earler, it all depends on what game you make.