An idea for a game

[yman]

Your kingdom is being overrun by an army of monsters, and your king has ordered you and several other secret agents to infiltrate the cities occupied by the enemy, discover, and assassinate the leader of the occupying force in each city. The monsters are rounding up humans and using them to feed their troops. There are several groups of humans hiding in the city. Some are civilians simply trying to survive, others are fighting back (angry citizens seeking revenge, remnants of the king's army and the city guard, etc). The enemy's army is also not entirely united in harmonious brotherhood, as different races, clans, packs, hordes, swarms, squads, platoons, companies, divisions, and individuals may have different levels of hostility or friendship towards each other. The same applies to the humans, though they tend to have a much higher degree of friendship towards each other, even when they compete or have opposing views.

Enter the main character, a highly skilled warrior, assassin, and spy, the elite of your kingdom's forces. You go around searching for information and various other resources to help you along with your mission. You form contact with humans and monsters, trade with them and perform missions for them while navigating the web of intrigue, and the dangerous streets and sewers of the city. Missions become available or unavailable depending on various conditions like time, weather, your reputation, how much a groups likes or hates you, and the current state of the game. Ultimately, your goal is to discover the true identity and location of the leader of the enemy forces in the city and kill him. For that you must gather tools and information and form a proper plan. If attack directly or sneak in without thinking without thinking things through you'll only get yourself killed without making any progress, and this applies to pretty much all missions. Improvising and guessing your way through a mission will only get you killed, something which you, as a professional ought to know.

Each object in the game, whether inanimate or alive, is unique. People and object don't disappear or appear randomly, and none of them is replaceable. Each one is a constant that remains for the entire game, and they never really fully disappear from the game. Kill a person and his body will stay there and stink up the area, attracting hungry monsters and repeling humans. It can be moved, it can be eaten, it can be used as a decoy, a weapon, a shield, a platform to stand on, etc. And the same goes for inanimate objects. Nothing just disappears, or becomes just another part of the scenery. Break a glass and you can use the shards, tear off an arm and you can use it as a lure, or a club, or a doorstop. Every animate object is a complete character, with it's own physical appearance and state, it's own psychological state, it's own intelligence level, it's own set of information it knows, and it's own possessions. Object don't disappear or stop moving just because you are far from them or can't see them. The world goes on whether you are there to witness it or not.

Leaders can organize and command their troops, leaving the implementation up to the units they have ordered. For example, a platoon leader can give orders to his squad leaders, who then implement those orders by giving more specific orders to members of their squads. Different races and groups have different levels of organization. For example: giant rats lead by example. The leader acts and the rest emulate him. Orcs can follow orders to a limited degree, but basically move and attack as disorganized hordes. The city guard are capable of complex plans, and have near-perfect order and discipline.

Psychology plays a large role in the behaviour of both individuals and groups, and can change based on positive and negative reinforcement (for instance: courage, confidence, pride, level-headedness, love/hate, etc). Characters can be encourage or discouraged from various forms of behaviour through reward and punishment.

Information can be conveyed through various media. If a character knows something then that piece of information will influence or determine the actions of that character: change the array of possible solutions to a problem, causing him to perform a mission or give up on it, adding the possible mission or ruling some out, etc. Depending on the character's intelligence level, he could take various pieces of information, put them together, and as a result derive new information from it.

I'd like to hear some feedback on this, or if there is a game like this already.

[Yuhaney]

Well, first game that came to my mind when reading this was Gothic 3. But it's not completely the one you writed there...

[yman]

Well, first game that came to my mind when reading this was Gothic 3. But it's not completely the one you wrote there...

The plot does sound pretty similar, but I was thinking of an FPS where the NPCs use a psychology engine to determine probability of various actions, with positive or negative reinforcement influencing the psychological state, thus influencing future actions. A complex and advanced AI that can figure out that it can use explosives stored in warehouse A to blow-up bridge B, and where to put the explosives to get the desired effect and not get caught in the blast and things like that. Or the ability to use strategy and tactics in battle. Basically, all people in the game should be NPCs and they should be programmed to be as life-like as possible.

In terms of gameplay, you could say I was thinking about Thief or Penumbra, only with a 100% open world.

Don't take this as criticism, I'm just using the chance to express some ideas that I think were a little vague in my previous post.

BTW, the wikipedia article turned me off, and the official website and the fansites were awful. Nice screenshots, though.

[Yuhaney]

It's truly not the best game that there is... Gothic II, on the other hand, is way better! With lower graphics but that is my all time favourite game no matter what!

Hmm... I haven't played S.T.A.L.K.E.R. but it came to my mind as well when you mentioned FPS. (As I said, I haven't played it so I don't even know is it FPS. xD lol.)

[yman]

It's truly not the best game that there is... Gothic II, on the other hand, is way better! With lower graphics but that is my all time favourite game no matter what!

Hmm... I haven't played S.T.A.L.K.E.R. but it came to my mind as well when you mentioned FPS. (As I said, I haven't played it so I don't even know is it FPS. xD lol.)

Nice! The description of the A-life system sounds like they are going in the direction I was talking about, though it's not there since it seems to lack intelligence and emotions. The rest also sounds pretty good. If only they had a Linux version, like Penumbra does...

[Kedjane]

I think the idea sounds fine, old-styled and reminds me of Myth. I think it's rather rare with stories where the humans are already outnumbered and crushed.
I could imagine something like Assassin's Creed but with the player sneaking around orcs and goblins instead, concealed not to reveal his human identity.
Anyways the rest sounds ok but is hardly a new idea. Permanent objects, all characters being completely lifelike and all that is easy to say, but hard to actually do. Today the AI is pretty stupid, I'd like to see something like enemies grouping together putting their shields together like in 300 or a swordsman covering a bowman taking shots at the player if the player is far away and using a bow. Today the swordsman would just run straight at the player ignoring the fact that he will surely get shot down before he can kill the player and also leaves the bowman completely in the open.

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Kill a person and his body will stay there and stink up the area, attracting hungry monsters and repeling humans. It can be moved, it can be eaten, it can be used as a decoy, a weapon, a shield, a platform to stand on, etc. And the same goes for inanimate objects. Nothing just disappears, or becomes just another part of the scenery. Break a glass and you can use the shards, tear off an arm and you can use it as a lure,or a club, or a doorstop. Every animate object is a complete character, with it's own physical appearance and state, it's own psychological state, it's own intelligence level, it's own set of information it knows, and it's own possessions. Object don't disappear or stop moving just because you are far from them or can't see them. The world goes on whether you are there to witness it or not.[...]
The city guard are capable of complex plans, and have near-perfect order and discipline.[...]
Psychology plays a large role in the behaviour of both individuals and groups, and can change based on positive and negative reinforcement[...]Information can be conveyed through various media. If a character knows something then that piece of information will influence or determine the actions of that character: change the array of possible solutions to a problem, causing him to perform a mission or give up on it, adding the possible mission or ruling some out, etc. Depending on the character's intelligence level, he could take various pieces of information, put them together, and as a result derive new information from it.[...]

Ok now I don't mean to be rude, so please don't get this the wrong way, but...umm...you've never actually taken part in any kind of game development, have you? Because these are exactly the kinds of ideas Peter "Crazypants" Molyneux used to have before the people tasked with actually MAKING the game for him had to drag him back to the harsh reality. Seriously, to reach such a level of interactivity and AI complexity in your game while also creating a huge world, thousands of NPCs, a compelling story, quests and whatnot, you would need a team of about 1000 professionals, working for 20 years straight without ever being allowed to see their families. And it would probably cost more money than the next Avatar movie.

That's my feedback for the technical side. Can't say much about the story (I'm no good at writing myself) other than that it sounds vaguely...generic? o.O

Oh and yes, Gothic 2 is one of the best games ever

[Bridge]

Kill a person and his body will stay there and stink up the area, attracting hungry monsters and repeling humans. It can be moved, it can be eaten, it can be used as a decoy, a weapon, a shield, a platform to stand on, etc. And the same goes for inanimate objects. Nothing just disappears, or becomes just another part of the scenery. Break a glass and you can use the shards, tear off an arm and you can use it as a lure,or a club, or a doorstop. Every animate object is a complete character, with it's own physical appearance and state, it's own psychological state, it's own intelligence level, it's own set of information it knows, and it's own possessions. Object don't disappear or stop moving just because you are far from them or can't see them. The world goes on whether you are there to witness it or not.[...]
The city guard are capable of complex plans, and have near-perfect order and discipline.[...]
Psychology plays a large role in the behaviour of both individuals and groups, and can change based on positive and negative reinforcement[...]Information can be conveyed through various media. If a character knows something then that piece of information will influence or determine the actions of that character: change the array of possible solutions to a problem, causing him to perform a mission or give up on it, adding the possible mission or ruling some out, etc. Depending on the character's intelligence level, he could take various pieces of information, put them together, and as a result derive new information from it.[...]

Ok now I don't mean to be rude, so please don't get this the wrong way, but...umm...you've never actually taken part in any kind of game development, have you? Because these are exactly the kinds of ideas Peter "Crazypants" Molyneux used to have before the people tasked with actually MAKING the game for him had to drag him back to the harsh reality. Seriously, to reach such a level of interactivity and AI complexity in your game while also creating a huge world, thousands of NPCs, a compelling story, quests and whatnot, you would need a team of about 1000 professionals, working for 20 years straight without ever being allowed to see their families. And it would probably cost more money than the next Avatar movie.

That's my feedback for the technical side. Can't say much about the story (I'm no good at writing myself) other than that it sounds vaguely...generic? o.O

Oh and yes, Gothic 2 is one of the best games ever

Yeah, it's unfortunate but you have to realize one thing: computers cannot think. They can only do what they are told to do and so NPCs in video games cannot truly deduce. If it appears an NPC has deduced something from the way you act or from events that occurred before it's only because someone "told the NPC" (not as simple as that): when x happens, this piece of information will be known to you. Realistic AI is the result of many days of thinking of absolutely everything that can happen and creating a complex tree of suitable "reactions". It's very time consuming and difficult which is why not many games have good AI.

Even with all the flak they gets, MMOs really are the perfect gaming experience in theory. If people would be more serious, and if they were designed differently, MMORPGs would be incomparably superior to SPRPGs. Why? Because there you have actual non-artificial intelligence that can react to any situation and even simple game mechanics can offer an intricate and dynamic experience. Alas, as with any multiplayer platform, people are prone to metagaming and not taking anything seriously which really detracts from the overall experience. MMO developers realize this and place less of an emphasis on role-playing and more on grinding out XP in an efficient and fun manner and socializing.

[Juby]

Yeah, it's unfortunate but you have to realize one thing: computers cannot think. They can only do what they are told to do and so NPCs in video games cannot truly deduce. If it appears an NPC has deduced something from the way you act or from events that occurred before it's only because someone "told the NPC" (not as simple as that): when x happens, this piece of information will be known to you. Realistic AI is the result of many days of thinking of absolutely everything that can happen and creating a complex tree of suitable "reactions". It's very time consuming and difficult which is why not many games have good AI.

[url]http://www.realmtech.net/documents/CompuThink.pdf[/url]

Computers (mainstream) at the moment do not think, but will no-doubly possess that capability in the near-future. When that happens, which should be within the century knowing we can speed up the evolutionary process instead of waiting millions of years, I don't see why it cannot be applied into AI in a video game. My inner nerd jumps at such a thought

[the dark side]

all the things suggested have been done in other games, one or two even in Console Titles, the hierachy sysrem, for example, was in the Brilliant! "Die Hard: Vendetta", a Dreamcast game made by a small british studio! and the "constant bodies" was in Deus Ex all those years ago, if old consoles and computers could do most of them, then a modern computer should have no issue doing all of them.

the only thing that is impossible is the sentient AI, as mainstream computers dont have the ability for conceptual thaught, but it wouild be possible to get very close with some very detailed AI Scripting.

i mean. ok, so the computer wouldnt be thinking for itself, just running a basic" I vs O" logic system. but it would "feel" sentient, a good example is on Playstation one of all systems!, the first medal of honour, if you lobbed a grenade at the enemy, it would trigger the following equasion (i wont put it in script, but "laymans" english) "is the grenade in reach? I (yes) throw back or kick back./ 0 (no) RUN!... is there an higher ranking NPC nearby? I: throw yourself on grenade. 0: see earlier script" like i said Playstation ONE was doing that so this brain dead "run at grenades and ignore them" AI seen today is lazy/inept programming, not computer hardware restrictions.

so with some good scripting you could create a resonably smart AI, ok so it wont have much emotion only "agressive" or "thaughtfull", (again I or O), and it wont be able to work out its own objectives, it will need them "waypointed" in, and the actions scripted, but, you could script it with a choice of waypoints and actions depending on what it is armed with, its "intellect" factor, and its proximity to objectives, but it would be able to flank the player, actively hunt them down, take cover from fire, and throw back grenades, and obey a "heirachy" system. all the scripts for that have been done before in various games, so it wouldnt be too difficult to get them all combined, the difficulty is in finding a non lazy and or competent developer who can or will do it.