ffs

[Cranky Old Man]

This isn't true, do you want to know something? It takes 10000 hours of practice with someone teaching you to master something. How will they get those 10000 hours without someone helping them?

With mental strength, maturity and talent.
If you send a thousand people into the wilderness with just a rock and a stick, only the best of them will survive a week. If a man has managed to survive a week in the wilderness with only a rock and a stick, I want to hear his story, because only then is it worthy of being told.

So they'll learn stuff without any help and better for it?
I guess all those Harvard computer science graduates must be shit at- *checks bill gates, gabe newells credidentals* Nope..
This elitist attitude is why so many people don't get into the video games industry. Programming at an advanced level, and no, AngelScript is not advanced, requires teaching to be effective at it, and so does level design and game design to an extent, as well as level editing. The "learn it yourself" attitude rarely works, Markuss Persson (notch) learnt it himself, and he had to get lucky to be known as a great developer, and even then, he's not great at programming.

Yes, I am being elitist, because a player is only looking to play the very best games and stories, of the hundreds of games released each year. The player is being elitist to begin with, and should be proud of it.

When it comes to level design, the available tools are so easy to use, that you can more or less figure them out yourself. The rest of creating a story, requires something that you can't learn in school: Effort, dedication and maturity. Writing a game isn't about simply being able to write code, but to actually do it too. I can program 4-5 languages, including assembler, and I still suck, because I don't finish the projects that I start.

[MyRedNeptune]

You really don't understand people, do you?

Whoa, don't you think that is a bit harsh?

If they didn't care, they wouldn't bother.

Why do you think that way? There are many things people don't take seriously that other people do, such as painting. I would understand your argument if HPL2 were a challenging engine, but it's not.

Conflict between newbies/"casuals" and oldies/"hardcore members" is a natural thing that happens to all communities when they grow, like the Frictional Community has. Just look at all the Amnesia let's-players on Youtube! And with AAMFP coming up it's going to become even more popular.

With that in mind, I think the wise thing to do would be to understand that the community is different now from what it was before, and learn to embrace that fact. The sooner people stop resisting change, the sooner they can start thinking productively and make this place better for everyone.

[nemesis567]

The easier an engine is to learn and grasp, the harder it is to master and push to it's limits.

That's one big pile of bullshit indeed. To say something like that you mustn't have the experience to back you up. Try not to mislead newbies.

[MyRedNeptune]

So, according to your argument, I should argue with every single new person rather than arguing with them as it's natural? Christ, I was completely right.

No, you shouldn't. By natural I meant "common". Maybe that was a wrong choice of wording on my part, in that case I'm sorry.

Anyhow, I presented you with arguments supporting my opinion. If you want to continue this argument, you are welcome to address my arguments in a constructive way, or present your own, otherwise we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And you say HPL2 isn't a challenging engine? Hm.. It's funny, because the least challenging engines are the hardest to master. You don't make as much progress and push them to their limits because of this, and it means that making truly stunning and creative environments is much rarer. The easier an engine is to learn and grasp, the harder it is to master and push to it's limits. I only ever say something is great if it looks great. I only ever say something is genius if it looks like it wasn't made with this engine but with something much more powerful. If you can make me say that throughout a custom story, then I will agree with you.

This is actually unrelated to what I typed: my argument was that it is possible for people to mod Amnesia without being serious about it because HPL2 is easy to get into, and the point I wanted to get across is that it is not constructive to fight these people. But that was well said and I can agree with some of your points.

[nemesis567]

Basic psychology also tells you different minds are different enough for you to not be able to draw such conclusions. And it makes no sense to go that way.

[MyRedNeptune]

EDIT: Okay, I guess we're done arguing then. ^^ Thanks for sharing your opinion.

[nemesis567]

lol. It's not worth a discussion for me Robosprog.
Also be aware of the following when discussing hpl: Everyone pulls the string to their side. HPL2 has nice features but it can't even be compared to most known engines. Check HPL1 code, it sure must have improved a lot, but there's just so much.

And don't ever forget how unreliable statistics are.

[Cranky Old Man]

Yes, I am being elitist, because a player is only looking to play the very best games and stories, of the hundreds of games released each year. The player is being elitist to begin with, and should be proud of it.

When it comes to level design, the available tools are so easy to use, that you can more or less figure them out yourself. The rest of creating a story, requires something that you can't learn in school: Effort, dedication and maturity. Writing a game isn't about simply being able to write code, but to actually do it too. I can program 4-5 languages, including assembler, and I still suck, because I don't finish the projects that I start.

If they are so easy to use, then why can't I make something as good as the original game?

Because Frictional learnt for years, made games for years and used the knowledge and experience they gained to make that. They most likely did spend 10000 hours, learning from others and learning from each other. This is a proven study.

Hello, sleep deprivation. (No mommy, I'm not an ostrich. I'm trying to make some sense here, but you're making it very hard for me.)

Frictional Games created an engine in C++, which we don't have to. We don't have to learn C++, so I bet that if only we had the inner strength to go through with it, a bunch of uneducated people could very well make a better story than Amnesia, if we only used their level editor. Their tools are designed to not require school.

And I know that, where did I say that it is?

That what?

You think that being able to code well and make good looking levels means you can make a good game?

Yes? No? Maybe?

Let me explain to you about level design.
Call of Duty, has a very linear form of level design, a well known fact, yet why is it better than say, Doom 3's?

It is?
You see, I never played Call of Duty (or Halo). I don't play wargames unless there's some sci-fi or fantasy stuff involved. Doom 3 had pretty good level deisgn, which was mostly linear as well, and if it sucked, it was because of demons from Hell invading a human base, only so that they could find the nearest monster closet and hide in it, shivering from agoraphobia.

Because the level design they used, whilst linear kept a constant flow of gameplay and thus provided interest. Now. if you made a straight corridor and that's it, this would be a shit map even if this straight corridor was the most beautiful piece of mapping ever made, because the gameplay would not flow and there would be nothing going on, as well as knowing everything that will happen due to having seen it before it happened, whilst if you look at Halo's Silent Cartographer level, the start is very non linear and multiple scenarios could happen, but, it will keep the gameplay flowing unless you attempt to stop that flow yourself. It is why a lot of Amnesia Mods are terrible, because their level design does not keep a flow going, and even then you have to make the levels reflect the environment and the story that is going on with twisting mansion corridors and such. It's very basic stuff this.

When it comes to pacing, if that's what you're referring to, a horror game will have a different pacing than an action game, because anticipation is more scary than action is. That's basic stuff as well. You can't compare the two.
...but what's your point? Why are you telling me about level design all of a sudden?

And no, people are not elitist when buying games, do you understand what the word means? It shows that they prefer one game over another, preferring quality assured products. An elitist is a view of games, such as "They must be hard or they are boring and pandering to casuals" is an example of one elitist viewpoint.

Another example of "elitist" is "They must be good, or they are not worth playing.", which was my point. Players will only stand good games, so ideally only good level designers should reach players.

Of course, I also have the view that you can just make stories for your own fun, and if some player happens to like your story too, then that's a bonus. These views are completely opposite and conflicting, and depends on from what perspective I'm seeing things.

---

And no, it's not, it's basic psychology. The easier something is the more arrogant you become and more complacent, and never push yourself as hard to learn or create things inside it. It's very common.

Why am I arguing with you when you just made my point?

[Acies]

Huh? This topic was fired up pretty hard ^^

To add my piece of opinion on the heap: I don't think we see zero(?) awesome projects just because HPL2 has a low "modding bar". I think it's because aspiring gamedesigners (coders, modelers etc.) work with "the main engines"; UDK, Cryengine, Unity and Source to prepare themselves for work in "the real world". HPL2 has quite low moddability, and to quote Thomas: "When we created the possibility of custom stories, it was something we thought of very late and I think Luis implemented it in less than a day. We put a few days on adding documentation ourwikias well, but all in all, it was a tiny effort compared to the rest of the game"

Which is the reason I think "professionals" look to other engines when building environments.

[nemesis567]

Just a note because I've seen this too many times. Just because UDK and CryE are "powerfull" engines, it doesn't mean they are good business solutions cause they most times aren't.