Gender

[Paddy™]

We're barely two pages into this thread and it's already teetering on the precipice of intolerability.

Please keep it rational, keep the insults to yourselves and if you can't conduct the debate in a personable manner your posts will be deleted. Flaming and provocation, whether direct or not-so-subtly encoded in passive-aggressive turns of phrase, will be ruthlessly searched for and removed.

[Tiger]

Spoiler below!

Video-game forums are always great places to get my daily fix of oblivious rage.

Uhm... Yeah, I'm out.

[VaeVictis]

Oh.

So where the fuck is the controversy?

The 'controversy' is that the effects of it more blatantly and violently against women. Again, all suffer, but women more so because of the violence it perpetuates.

---

Spoiler below!

Video-game forums are always great places to get my daily fix of oblivious rage.

Uhm... Yeah, I'm out.

I apologize if that offended you (my response). I'll delete it if it'll help things. Granted, I still agree with the post by the by, but I'll tone down my response.

[Paddy™]

P.S. Just throwing your hands up and saying "Ah, some men will be bad" is a cop-out. You and I, as men, can do something to help other guys be less casually dismissive of the female gender. The fact is that you shouldn't get angry when a girl complains about issues that affect her - it's not a personal attack on your gentlemanly conduct, and reading into it as such is not a grown man's way of discourse. A thick skin is necessary for the internet, if not a thick skull.

Text-wall incoming:

Spoiler below!

I'm not as well-read on this subject as I should be, but from what I have read of ideological feminism (as distinct from a desire to have equal rights for everyone) is that everything is seen through an extremely biased lens. Just as a conspiracy theorist sees the hand of the New World Order in all of society's affairs, no matter how seemingly banal they might be, the ideological feminist sees the hand of men and the oppressive patriarchy in everything. Even when the system seems to privilege women over men it's not seen as evidence against the idea of a patriarchy, it's simply taken as further evidence for it:

"Women are greatly benefited by the court system, both in terms of jail times/punishment for crimes and custody of children. Doesn't that show that women aren't oppressed by an inherently oppressive, conspiratorial system?"

"No, it proves that women are infantilised by men and are seen as weak and in need of more privilege."

"So you do have some privilege?"

"It's hardly privilege, it's simply further evidence that we're not in control of our own destinies!"

"So we'll even things out and given you the same jail terms and custody rights as men?"

"Hell no, we fought hard for these things!"

The statistics and data offered by ideological feminists are often taken as read by casual observers, but the issues are always much more complex than the way in which they're presented. Domestic violence has been studied extensively, for instance, and everyone seems to assume that men are mostly perpetrators and women victims. Studies which are conducted without pre-determined outcomes, and which ask dispassionate and fairly-worded questions, show something closer to gender symmetry in domestic violence. It's an idea so alien to the popular view of the issue that you'd probably get a pretty confused and sceptical look from anyone to whom you said it, despite the fact that the studies are available to anyone. Take nothing on faith.

This is why discussion of feminism is often met with such displeasure. It's not because people don't care about what happens to women, it's because of the way in which the issue is presented and argued, i.e. using questionable scientific and historical evidence, telling men that they're both scum and part of the solution in the same breath, presenting women as victims and men as perpetrators before the discussion even begins, injecting ideological feminist viewpoints into everything, rattling off sound-bites in place of data, etc. You don't need to be a well-read, educated adult to be irritated by that.

I reject the claims of ideological feminists that gender discrimination is unquestionably a problem perpetrated on women by men. I reject the notion that there is a systemic and deliberate conspiracy (or even an unconscious desire) by males to dominate society and the affairs of women. I also reject the following ideological feminist beliefs:

• Men are defective women, genetically speaking.
  
• Men are naturally inclined towards rape, violence and misogyny and are only prevented from doing so by socialisation.
  
• Men should be reduced in number for the betterment of society and women.
  
• Misandry doesn't exist or only exists as a direct response to misogyny.
  
• A woman would never make a false claim of rape/battery/harassment because the traumatic ordeal of going through the system is too great, or some other such rationale.
  
• The system is generally (and even severely) slanted in favour of men.
  
• There exists a "rape culture" which normalises the abuse of women.
  
• Rape is generally a female problem and a male crime.
  
• Women get the short end of the stick in almost all circumstances.

Humanism is a much easier position to defend than feminism, and it's a hell of a lot more beneficial to all of society. I want what everyone else here seems to want, but I think there's a better way to go about attaining it than ideological feminism, or even moderate/progressive feminism for that matter.

[Nice]

in regards to dogfood's post
no
men and women are not equally discriminated and you're kidding yourself if you think that equal treatment of women has been reached over the last few years. women are statistically paid significantly less than men (see http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/womens...and-income) and are often times have a harder time getting employed for the simple fact that they're female. they're still fighting for the right to be able to have control of their own bodies (see the fact that we're still having debates over whether or not abortions should be legal in fucking 2013). they still get shamed for the way they dress and how sexual active they are (see any dumbass highschooler complaining about "omg all the slutz" at their school), and yet pretty much any fashion magazine will tell you that to be considered beautiful and have self worth you have to present yourself in an over sexualized manor. even in the cases you were presenting when guys were given the shit end of the stick it was because people thought that the girl was too weak or incapable of handling rejection, which is kind of one of the key elements of why feminism even exists in the first place.
almost all of this isn't a conscious effort or some sort of ~male agenda~ or anything stupid like that it's just so indoctrinated into our society and is considered so socially accepted that most people don't question it, which is exactly why feminism still exists. it's to bring attention to said injustices and tries to educate people on them so they don't inadvertently take part in them.
this isn't even coming from a hardcore feminist or anything either lol, i disagree with a large amount of what they believe in but this sorta stuff is just common sense

in regards to kman's reply.

no.

First of all, the link you gave me says "page not found", second, I dont know how it's like in the USA but in my country it doesn't matter how old you are, how bad you smell or which sex you are. EVERYONE gets payed the same, depeding on their work position.

I have never witnessed a female IRL complaining or getting trouble for applying to a job because she was a female. Infact, if you read my post the only thing i witnessed was how a male got removed from his work so the female could take over. Simply because of the gender factor. YES because of that, that guy happens to be my friend and he asked his boss about why he got fired. The boss said "Sorry, but female waitresses are better".

If a guy dresses up funny, he's gonna be just as shamed as if a woman would be. If not more. And just like magazines with women imply that women should look the sexiest, should wear the most suggestive clothing and wear excessive make up to look better. There's also the rule for males...According to media, society or whatever, real men shouldnt cry, real men should be buff as hell and have 6 packs, real men should be gentlemen and real men should know everything technical stuff...Otherwise they aren't "men"

[Bridge]

Study feminism. Get involved with it. Look at how the problems of the women in your life differ from yours.

Have you even read my posts? I have done nothing but advocate equality. I know that men are privileged. But I also know that it is not my fault, and I will not stand idly by while somebody claims that it is. It's simply not true, and generally I try to correct people when they spout falsehoods.

Or just question assumptions and the very fact that you got all hot and flustered, thus proving my sarcastic comment about hyper-emotional men! All those things help.

The only thing it proves is that I have no patience for idiocy in debates. You made a patently erroneous post that I wished to refute, and the joke clearly went over my head since I have not read the thread you're referencing. When did I get "hot and flustered"? You made a stupid post that made no sense so I pointed that out. If you made a stupid post about any other issue I would have responded exactly the same way.

P.S. Just throwing your hands up and saying "Ah, some men will be bad" is a cop-out. You and I, as men, can do something to help other guys be less casually dismissive of the female gender.

Yeah, how's that working out for you? Last time I checked people are free to believe what they want to believe and it has been shown that time and time again it is very difficult to make bigots see reason. I can only lead by example, which is what I do.

The fact is that you shouldn't get angry when a girl complains about issues that affect her - it's not a personal attack on your gentlemanly conduct, and reading into it as such is not a grown man's way of discourse. A thick skin is necessary for the internet, if not a thick skull.

Listen, this is a place for discussion. Somebody makes a post, somebody else responds. If I didn't want to talk to people then I wouldn't be here. You act as if I were gravely offended at Abraxis' words which is simply not true. I know I'm not sexist, so it doesn't matter to me what Abraxis thinks. What matters to me is pointing out that she shows undue resentment towards males in her posts and makes pointless, irrelevant blanket statements about men that do not hold up.

[Acies]

- zip -

I fixed the link for you:

http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/womens...and-income



Also, as someone who studies sociology this is interesting, very much so.

Something, something source: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arch...ap/276367/


I think the fact that career choices differ between men and women are skewing the results of 'a man vs. female pay average'; generally more men go into, for example, engineering while women may search programs which aren't as well payed by the end of the education. The above study mentions:

' "We're trying to compare men and women with the same education, same management responsibilities, similar employers, in companies with a similar number of employees." After controlling for these factors, "the gender wage gap disappears for most positions," she said. '

If the choices of education themselves are a 'forced opression by the patriarchal society during upbringing' (ergo, inposed sub-consciously due to the nature of society, during a child's upbringing) isn't something which I'm ready to debate, 'as the well is deep' in the case of these loop-type arguements.

[imgoneimdead]

im 2 females in a man costume
MY GENDER IS NOT KNOWN BY ANY

[Kman]

First of all, the link you gave me says "page not found", second, I dont know how it's like in the USA but in my country it doesn't matter how old you are, how bad you smell or which sex you are. EVERYONE gets payed the same, depeding on their work position.

guess the since the forum auto shrunk the link it 404'd but yeah just click the one robo posted

also this isn't a matter of personal observation, it's a matter of fact that statistically woman get paid less than men. this isn't even just for the US either like that website shows that it applies to p much every country and part of the world

I have never witnessed a female IRL complaining or getting trouble for applying to a job because she was a female. Infact, if you read my post the only thing i witnessed was how a male got removed from his work so the female could take over. Simply because of the gender factor. YES because of that, that guy happens to be my friend and he asked his boss about why he got fired. The boss said "Sorry, but female waitresses are better".

1 personal incident does not account for the experience of women world wide. yes that is unfair on the employers part but that's the opposite of what happens the large majority of the time

for example: "The employment-population ratio shown on Chart 4 represents the proportion of the population 16 years and older that are employed."

source: http://www.dol.gov/_sec/media/reports/femalelaborforce/

think that speaks for itself

If a guy dresses up funny, he's gonna be just as shamed as if a woman would be. If not more. And just like magazines with women imply that women should look the sexiest, should wear the most suggestive clothing and wear excessive make up to look better.

yes exactly they're pressured to dress and look a certain way (overly skinny, very revealing, overly feminine etc etc) and yet if someone actually does choose to dress in a more sexual or revealing manor they're generally disregarded as a slut (which is where the whole concept of slut shaming comes from). when was the last time you heard a public school enforcing a dress code because they thought guys were being too revealing?

There's also the rule for males...According to media, society or whatever, real men shouldnt cry, real men should be buff as hell and have 6 packs, real men should be gentlemen and real men should know everything technical stuff...Otherwise they aren't "men"

which goes back to what abrax was saying about the fact that we live in a patriarchal society negatively impacting males too, because it's assumed that men should be strong manly men like you said, which again goes right back to the fact that one of the main reasons feminism still exists is to dismantle the patriarchy

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also paddy i actually agree with a good deal of your post, a lot of those points and the type of people you're talking about are the ones that take it too far and try to give women a higher position in society then men. most of the people who i've met that consider themselves feminists do honestly just want equality, and after getting past the general hatred the internet has on the matter and actually listening to some of what they had to say it really isn't as bad as you or most other people make it out to be.

[CarnivorousJelly]

Actually I can't figure out how to word what I was going to say, so I'm just going to edit this post and leave this here instead.

Carry on - I'll just keep watching from the sidelines